Here is the full transcript of the French newspaper Le Figaro’s interview with Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan, which took place in Islamabad on February 14, 2022:
LE FIGARO: I wanted also to meet you to talk about three main subjects. The first one, of course, is Afghanistan. Because it’s become a concern for you as well. As you know Pakistan has not recognized the new regime at the moment. Could you explain what are the considerations for Pakistan to recognize the new regime. Why is it not recognized yet and what are the conditions that you have to recognize a new Taliban regime?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Well firstly, Pakistan wants to take all the regional countries surrounding Afghanistan. So we want to take a step. All of them collectively, it should be. Pakistan alone, if it takes a step. It’s just too much. International pressure on us you know and we are really trying to get ourselves on our feet economically. My government came in the country was bankrupt. We didn’t have money to pay our liability so therefore our main consideration right now is our economy. And our economy can only lift it up if we have a good relationship with the world. Hmm. And therefore the last thing we want is isolation you know by being the only country. But having said that I believe that the only way forward if you are looking for the well-being of almost 40 million Afghan citizens is to sooner or later recognize the government. Because there is no other alternative right now. There is not even when the Taliban were in power. The last time there was a northern alliance where there was a conflict going on. There is no conflict now in Afghanistan. Which is by the way after 40 years there is the first time the country is conflict-free. Apart from you small terrorist organizations which are which the more stability in Afghanistan the less chance of any of these international terrorists to survive there. So I feel that the only way forward is recognition. Pakistan can’t do it alone. I think we are consulting all the regional countries. But you know for the well-being of the people of Afghanistan. Sooner or later they will have to recognize Afghanistan. Now the question what are the conditions? As far as I can see from there is an international consensus that there should be one inclusive government. And number two human rights. Specifically female rights, women rights. So the Taliban government pledged both. They have talked about human rights and they have talked about inclusive government. Now the question is what will it take for the world to be satisfied that the Taliban need the connection. Right. This is really the because they have agreed to the two conditions.
LE FIGARO: So actually you’re talking about women’s rights for example. When Minister Muttaqi was here in Islamabad for the OIC summit. For example, this issue of women’s rights was it raised with him and what did he say? I mean as you know so far in some provinces universities are still closed for women. Some schools also still closed. Did he give concrete words on this issue?
PM IMRAN KHAN: It’s not concrete, they agreed to the principle. How they will go about it? You know, if anyone is familiar with the Afghan character, they should realize that they are very very proud people. And you know, you can’t push them. They hate outside interference. In two thousand one, Pakistan was one of the three countries that recognized Afghanistan. Yet when Pakistan tried to tell the Taliban, you know, to hand over Osama Bin Laden to the Americans. They point-blank refused. So there is a limit to you know what you what outside interference of pressure can do to a government, especially a government that is fiercely dependent like the Taliban. So, it is just caution that if anyone thinks that, you know, you can force them the force, the pace of what they believe is an inclusive government and human rights. Well, it’s not going to happen. And we should not expect, you know, what we expect women’s rights. According to what the people of Afghanistan think and what western women’s rights. There’s, there’s a big gulf between the two and that’s not going to happen. . If that is an expectation in Afghanistan it will not happen. But you know they have agreed that girls should be allowed to study. So that’s you know there is no at least that one point they have they when they came here they agreed. Right. They said we are just taking our time. We are seeing the right conditions but they’ve agreed to that.
LE FIGARO: As far as the security concerned far as security concerns are in you know. I’d like to know a bit more about the security concerns you have coming from Afghanistan. More precisely you know that the Taliban Pakistan has bases in Eastern Afghanistan. Especially they also the possibility that some Baloch insurgent groups could be also active from Afghanistan. They’ve carried a couple of attacks against Pakistan recently. Are these some of your most pressing concerns?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Two concerns, number one is are the refugees. Pakistan already has over 3 million Afghan refugees. And the worries if things deteriorate in Afghanistan, if this humanitarian crisis gets worse then there will be a bigger floor of refugees into the country. Already we have almost since the fall of Kabul. We have almost two hundred and forty thousand Afghans who have come into Pakistan. So number one, you know the country, just cannot take more refugees. We don’t have the resources. And secondly, before the fall of Kabul three groups operated from Afghanistan. Number one was the TTP, Pakistan, Taliban. Number two was Baloch terrorist. And number three was ISIL. Okay. So, our belief is that the most stable the Afghan government gets. The less chance of these groups to operate from there. Right. So therefore we have reasons probably Pakistan has the strongest reason for stability in Afghanistan for these reasons refugees and terrorism.
LE FIGARO: So it means that when the Afghan Taliban are saying that they will not allow the country to be so to be used by terrorist organizations against any other country. Do you trust them when they say that?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Yes, I trust them. I think anyone who worked, who dealt with the Afghan Taliban. I am talking even of in 2000. One thing you can say is that they used to stick to their word. I mean when our truckers or people used to go after the Taliban took over. When they used to go to Afghanistan. Previously after every 50 miles, there was a warlord who is to take money. One Taliban came into par. Basically, there was complete security everywhere. And when they guaranteed security you got it. So believe that they will because it’s in their interest. What the Taliban would or the government would want most of all is to look after their people and they can only look after them if there is security and trade. Right. So so I think yes you know as I said not only our government, all the neighbors believe that stability in Afghanistan is extremely important. For central Asian republics, Afghanistan for from Pakistan and Central Asian Republic’s points of view, it connects Pakistan through Afghanistan, we get connected to Central Asia and they get connected to the Indian Ocean. Where they can take the goods out. So, all of us are interested in an stability there.
LE FIGARO: So, when the UN points out that the Taliban still have connections with Al Qaeda and other foreign GRS organizations using these concerns are not justified?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Well, you see the Taliban will suffer if there’s a terrorism from Taliban soil international terrorism then they are going to suffer so it’s in their interest to stop international terrorism.
LE FIGARO: Let’s talk about France a bit. Can you tell me about how do you see the trajectory of the French-Pakistan relationship for this year and the years to come? How would you like to boost the bilateral relationship?
PM IMRAN KHAN: I think France is a very important country for Pakistan. Firstly, I mean Pakistan has half its exports, almost half are into the European Union. France is one of the most important countries and a trading partner. So, Pakistan’s main interest is to fix our economy, make our country stand on its feet, care about the two hundred and 20 million Pakistanis. So, therefore my main interest is the economy. And because of that France is extremely important for us.
LE FIGARO: What are your requirements? What are your plan or ideas to strengthen this bilateral relationship? Would you do you have any particular ideas in mind that you would like to implement?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Well I mean you know because of COVID there was hardly any international travel or communication. You had virtual meetings everywhere. So but you know ideally I would like to meet President Macron and discuss a bilateral ties, yes.
LE FIGARO: Do you have, did you, have you been able to plan a phone call with him so far?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Yes, I’ve spoken to President Macron twice.
LE FIGARO: So when do you think Pakistan will appoint an ambassador in Paris?
PM IMRAN KHAN: I think we are in the process of doing so.
LE FIGARO: I’ll of course I would like to talk to you about the bilateral recent relations between India and Pakistan which you’ve mentioned at the beginning of this interview. These big two nuclear powers of South Asia. Would you say it’s a so the abrogation of the autonomy of Jammu and Kashmir was completely unexpected for everyone? Would you say that Pakistan’s security concerns these are India has increased since then?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Yes, it was the 5th August 2019 decision of India to change unilaterally the status of Kashmir. That was the beginning when you know a relationship just well there been no relationship since then. Because this is going against the United Nations security council resolution. And not just that. It is the way the RSS led BJP government in India. The way it is has conducted its policy towards Pakistan and specifically towards Kashmir. It is, I am afraid, right now there is a lot of anxiety in our part of the world that we are not dealing with the rational government. We are dealing with a government whose ideologies are based on hate towards Muslims, towards minorities, specifically towards Pakistan. And it’s not a rational government where we can talk to them.
LE FIGARO: Right. So you do you have still this concern that India has not accepted the creation of Pakistan?
PM IMRAN KHAN: No, I think it’s you know that’s, you know, that they have to accept. The issue is simply, that they are to resolve our difference, the main difference is Kashmir. That’s the main difference. And that’s why when I came into power, my first step was to extend the hand of friendship to learn Narendra Modi. And you know, I know India better than most Pakistanis. So, my idea was that we should have a relationship and our only difference is Kashmir. and to settle that through dialogue. But the response we have got you know I was quite surprised at the response I got from the Indian Prime Minister. And then Pulwama happened where a young Kashmiri boy blows himself up an Indian convoy and they blame us for it. And then they bomb Pakistan. And then you know of course we down one of their planes and then we return there. Pilot. Just to tell them that we didn’t want any escalation but it was just their attitude, the attitude of this Modi government. So, there is no relationship right now. And at the moment, what should I say? This is just a stalemate.
LE FIGARO: So, what, what do you think can be done? What, how, how can, how can, how can Pakistan build friendly relations with India? What is there a first step or anything you Pakistan could do to improve this?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Yes, we can build a relationship with India, but it has to start from them going back to that step they took on fifth August 2019. They have to you know restore the status of Kashmir. Because that’s a violation of international law.
LE FIGARO: Right. This is the only condition you have?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Yes, go back to fifth August 2019. And yes we can talk after that.
LE FIGARO: Otherwise, there will be no negotiation, no behind-the-door kind of secret negotiation to try to do something?
PM IMRAN KHAN: It is the biggest betrayal to negotiate would be the betrayal of the people of Kashmir who have suffered so much. 100,000 Kashmiris have died so far. In what is was the right guaranteed by the international community through the United Nations Security Council resolution. Hmm. That they would be allowed to decide their own destiny through a plebiscite. And so you know, denying them that and then using force 800,000 troops, which have basically kept the people of Kashmir in an open prison. There is no way we can move forward until they restore that status.
LE FIGARO: And indeed actually interesting because very regularly I received the press release from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that condemns the use of force and torturing Kashmir. But let me ask you something that I’ve I have in mind. Pakistan regularly denounces these and I completely understand. On the other hand, it doesn’t talk about the repression of Muslim in Xinjiang. So, my question is, do you think that maybe this lack of consistency could also dense the credibility of the accusation that Pakistan has on India, on what India is doing in Kashmir?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Let’s just first see the status of it that it is part of China. It’s not a dispute. Right. It’s recognized as part of China. The state of Kashmir is that this was in nineteen forty-eight accepted by the international community that was a disputed territory between Pakistan and India. So number one, the status of Kashmir. Number two, the people of Kashmir were guaranteed that they would and accepted by India that through an aside, they would decide whether they wanted to go to Pakistan or India. That plebiscite never took place. Kashmir had a special status in the Indian constitution. Hmm. Unilaterally two thousand nineteen India removed that status. So, firstly, it is a completely different. It’s between Pakistan and India. It’s a disputed land. Right. That’s why, Pakistan speaks about people of Kashmir. Because one third of Kashmir is in Pakistan. And there are lot of Kashmiri refugees who from Indian side who are living in Pakistan. So, therefore it is a direct concern to Pakistan. So what happens to Muslims all over the world? You know, I mean, just from Syria to Libya to Somalia, Iraq, I mean Muslims are going through a lot right now. But my specific concern right now is Kashmir as a disputed territory between Pakistan and India.
LE FIGARO: So let’s finish with the subject of the cooperation between the United States and Pakistan. You’ve been criticizing a lot. The US-Pakistan partnership after 2001. After the US withdrew from Afghanistan, there was this over the horizon policy which was announced. How do you see Pakistan’s participation in this over the horizon strategy and vision by President Biden? Does it does it appeal to you and have you seen some concrete response from the US on this? What can be done exactly?
PM IMRAN KHAN: First, you just let me just be clear. Pakistan has a very good relationship with the US. I mean we’ve always had good relations with the US. There were aspects of the relationship which I have always criticized. And the main aspect which I criticize was this war on terror in Afghanistan. I never thought there would be a military solution in Afghanistan. For a start, there was no clear idea what they had come to do in Afghanistan. Was it nation-building? Was it women’s rights? Was it human rights? What were they doing their bringing in democracy? So, because they were never clear aims. No one knew what they were doing in Afghanistan. I don’t think the Americans knew what they were doing there. So, what was victory in Afghanistan? No one knew that. So, I criticized the Afghanistan adventure throughout saying there was no military solution, whatever they are trying to achieve. Secondly, Pakistan’s participation in the US war on terror. I did not want Pakistan to participate in it. Only for one reason. In the 80s, Pakistan had helped the US and fight the Soviets in Afghanistan arming the Mujahideens and calling jihad, the Jihadis were heroes. Because they were fighting foreign occupation against the Soviets. We trained them along with CIA. 10 years later, 89 the Soviets leave. And then come two thousand one, the US arrives in Afghanistan. Now we are to tell the same people who had been trained to fight the foreign occupation. Now we are telling them that fighting the US occupation is terrorism. So they turned against us. Okay. My point was we should have stayed neutral. So, the Pakistani Taliban turned against us because all the operations against the Soviets took place from the tribal areas, adjoining districts, to Afghanistan. They became Pakistan, Taliban, who turned against us. And secondly, the old groups, they turned against us like Al Qaeda. So, Pakistan eighty thousand people. Hmm. I mean which ally of the US lost so many people? And yet Pakistan got blamed for the failure in Afghanistan. So I disagreed with that. But apart from that right now we have a shared aim with the US. We want no terrorism from Afghanistan. We are against international terrorism. So is the US. So we have a shared interest. And I hope that the US also realizes that you know they originally came to Afghanistan to fight international terrorism. Al Qaeda, and now if it goes into chaos you could end up in the same position again. So therefore we have a shared interest in stability in Afghanistan.
LE FIGARO: Okay, so does that mean that Pakistan will participate in this over the horizon policy strategy?
PM Imran Khan: It can only happen with the permission of the Taliban government. And if they allow it, then it can happen. But otherwise is, the last thing we want is another conflict with this, now Afghan government. After having lost 80,000 people now, Pakistan cannot afford another conflict. So, we will be partners in peace with the US but not in conflict.
LE FIGARO: Let me ask you a bit of a personal question but you know, when I was living in Pakistan at the end of 2009, in 2013. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton came to Pakistan for a visit and she was asked by a student in Lahore that you know, you Americans, you, you abandoned us after, after 89. What are the guarantees we have that you will not abandon us again? Now the United States have shifted their priorities away from this region. Do you feel that you’ve been betrayed again?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Frankly, I don’t blame the United States. I blame my own leadership. The job of the leadership of this country is to protect the interest of its own people. Hmm. It’s not the job of the United States to protect the interest of the Pakistani people. Right. So, why did Pakistan allow itself to be used? in we became part of the US war against the Soviets through Afghanistan you know in the 80s, But once that was over, a year later sanctions were slapped on Pakistan. So Pakistan should have learned by then. That’s why I opposed, you know. Pakistan joining the US war on terror. After 2001, number one we had trained these Mujahideen to fight the foreign occupation and now how were we going to stop them? And when we joined them (US in war on terror), they (same Mujahideens) turned against us. But secondly, we felt used (by the US) after, when we were, in 91 we had the Pressler Sanctions imposed on Pakistan. As Pakistan as a neighbor, we had 4 million Afghan refugees. We had Kalashnikovs (for the) first time. We had sectarian militant groups left in Pakistan. Fall out of the Afghan jihad in the 80s. So now joining them, I opposed it, I thought we should stay neutral. But I still remember George Bush’s statement saying that we will not abandon Pakistan again. Yeah. And they did.
LE FIGARO: Okay. last question. Do you have any plans to visit France? Is there any official visit (planned) for France which could be in the pipeline anytime soon or is it something that you could do?
PM IMRAN KHAN: Not yet, but yes, of course, I would like to visit France.
LE FIGARO: After Prime Minister Gilani in 2011 it was been 11 years since the Pakistani Prime Minister visited France but I hope it will happen. Thank you so much for your time Prime Minister.